Alternator Problems
#1
07-01-2010, 06:22 PM
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Alternator Problems
A little less than a year ago I lost power driving down the highway. All of the electronic died and the engine shut off. I had it towed to the shop and had a new alternator put in. This solved the problem but now, I was towing my tandem axle cargo trailer from Oregon to my home in Washington and all of the electronics flickered. I quickly pulled over and unplugged the trailer. I made it home and check the volts on both my brand new batteries to find that they were both down to 9 volts. I check the volts coming out of my alternator and it was only putting out 9 volts. In all I guess my question is, can an alternator die in less than a year, and what would cause that? The old alternator was put in August of 2009. Sorry this post is so long but I didn't know how to ask it. Thanks
#2
07-01-2010, 06:26 PM
A little less than a year ago I lost power driving down the highway. All of the electronic died and the engine shut off. I had it towed to the shop and had a new alternator put in. This solved the problem but now, I was towing my tandem axle cargo trailer from Oregon to my home in Washington and all of the electronics flickered. I quickly pulled over and unplugged the trailer. I made it home and check the volts on both my brand new batteries to find that they were both down to 9 volts. I check the volts coming out of my alternator and it was only putting out 9 volts. In all I guess my question is, can an alternator die in less than a year, and what would cause that? The old alternator was put in August of 2009. Sorry this post is so long but I didn't know how to ask it. Thanks
What alternator did you put in after the OEM failed?
#3
07-01-2010, 08:13 PM
#4
07-01-2010, 08:26 PM
Yea I learned there is no advantage to an OEM replacement. My second one burned up a year later. After that I just bought a advance auto cheapie. At least it has a lifetime warranty. Ford only offers a 12 month/12,000 on theirs. And the cheapie actually puts out .2 more volts than the Ford one so I'm happy with it.
#6
07-02-2010, 12:20 PM
#7
07-02-2010, 02:03 PM
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From my understanding the high amp units can also prolong life of the FICM and other high voltage reliant components.
By comparrison the DC unit weighs about six pounds more than stock. Install take only 10 minutes and does not require a tensioner tool but only the 13mm socket to remove the 3 bolts.
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#8
10-02-2010, 10:09 AM
StumpGrinderGuy
I have a 2005 6.0 Diesel f250. I just replaced my 6th alternator in 108k miles. The alt I put in prior to the last one was a 200a alternator. It lasted the longest, 1.5 years. I have had Ford replace them as well as having them rebuilt myself. This current one (lifetime warrenty, from chain auto parts store) is already showing burning signs on the windings. I have become weary of the battle. And as for replacing them in 10 minutes? I have not done it that fast and would be interested to know how it is done so quickly without pry-baring the belt, thanks for your input, John.
#9
10-02-2010, 10:34 AM
I have a 2005 6.0 Diesel f250. I just replaced my 6th alternator in 108k miles. The alt I put in prior to the last one was a 200a alternator. It lasted the longest, 1.5 years. I have had Ford replace them as well as having them rebuilt myself. This current one (lifetime warrenty, from chain auto parts store) is already showing burning signs on the windings. I have become weary of the battle. And as for replacing them in 10 minutes? I have not done it that fast and would be interested to know how it is done so quickly without pry-baring the belt, thanks for your input, John.
Start a new thread with this post... I am going to need a lot more details from you before I can guess at what might be the issue.
#10
10-02-2010, 10:59 AM
A little less than a year ago I lost power driving down the highway. All of the electronic died and the engine shut off. I had it towed to the shop and had a new alternator put in. This solved the problem but now, I was towing my tandem axle cargo trailer from Oregon to my home in Washington and all of the electronics flickered. I quickly pulled over and unplugged the trailer. I made it home and check the volts on both my brand new batteries to find that they were both down to 9 volts. I check the volts coming out of my alternator and it was only putting out 9 volts. In all I guess my question is, can an alternator die in less than a year, and what would cause that? The old alternator was put in August of 2009. Sorry this post is so long but I didn't know how to ask it. Thanks
How are you so sure it was the alternator that died?
What kind of a replacement did they put in?
Do yourself a huge favor and purchase a DC Power highout put alternator. The 190 amp model sells for around $349 and put outs a full 130 amps at idle where as the stock unit does good to put out 50 amps. This will hold true for the AutoZone remanfac units as well.
From my understanding the high amp units can also prolong life of the FICM and other high voltage reliant components.
By comparrison the DC unit weighs about six pounds more than stock. Install take only 10 minutes and does not require a tensioner tool but only the 13mm socket to remove the 3 bolts.
From my understanding the high amp units can also prolong life of the FICM and other high voltage reliant components.
By comparrison the DC unit weighs about six pounds more than stock. Install take only 10 minutes and does not require a tensioner tool but only the 13mm socket to remove the 3 bolts.
The danger is in believing the "high output" claim.
I can give you an alternator that can put out 250amps in the small case.
With a 3% duty cycle.
The issue is not just output --- but duty cycle and also temperature rating in the case of real heavy duty use.
No known automotive grade alternator can put out the "claimed" cold rating (which is what you have above) when it gets hot.
A common (and easy) scam is to put on a smaller pulley, and voila, instantly, you get higher "output" at lower RPM...
But electronically and electro mechanically, it is no different from a cheapie.
Beware of those who are flogging $99 alternators as "high output" simply by changing a pulley.
If they don't specify duty cycle, hot/cold ratings, and SHOW YOU THE TEST CURVE, suspect.
Yea I learned there is no advantage to an OEM replacement. My second one burned up a year later. After that I just bought a advance auto cheapie. At least it has a lifetime warranty. Ford only offers a 12 month/12,000 on theirs. And the cheapie actually puts out .2 more volts than the Ford one so I'm happy with it.
There is an advantage if you bought a NEW, that is IDENTICAL to the OEM from Ford
AND
You have not added large amounts of electrical load to the system.
If any of those variables change (e.g. many Ford counter persons can and will give you the car grade vs. the truck grade alternator), there is no advantage.
Think a lot of the Ford OEM issues come from installation of "also fit" alternators by the Ford counter person, and not using the exact replacement,
OR
Not taking into account a large increase in electrical load.
If you look in a car, see custom heated seats, 4 aftermarket fog lights, siren, wigwags, 500 watt stereo, 40" big screen TV.... that is a pretty good reason the stock alternator can't cut it.
Autozone do not, as a general rule, stock or sell commercial grade alternators.
So the lifetime warranty means it is warranted until you run out of patience with them.
It is warranted for the lifetime of your patience removing and replacing the alternator with another one of theirs.. that can fail in just as short a time.
Patience of the customer never last the lifetime of the vehicle or customer.
The 6.0 is a commercial grade drivetrain, and it requires a commercial / truck grade alternator sized correctly to handle both the load and the duty cycle.
Nearly all "car" grade alternators, can look the same, claim big "output", but don't work (or last).
Buyer beware.
#11
10-02-2010, 11:19 AM
FTE Legend
Originally Posted by Paxdad
Do yourself a huge favor and purchase a DC Power highout put alternator.
https://www.dcpowerinc.com/dc-power-vs-competition
I know a number of people running a DC Power alternator, and they measure up to their company's claims in every aspect. These are quality units.
#12
10-02-2010, 11:23 AM
https://www.dcpowerinc.com/dc-power-vs-competition
I know a number of people running a DC Power alternator, and they measure up to their company's claims in every aspect. These are quality units.
I know a number of people running a DC Power alternator, and they measure up to their company's claims in every aspect. These are quality units.
Good link!
Now... just size one correctly to the load....
And ensure that the wiring / connections can handle the higher output.
It may not be amusing to put on a 200amp alternator, load it to full output, and find the sub-standard wiring melt.
Notice their stuff is not cheap....
When I had to do mine, ended up with a smaller rated output (less waste heat) but a higher duty cycle (close to 100%).
Optimized to run all day / night / week / month / years at rated output.
And to have very little degradation of performance in the expected heat / temperature conditions I have.
A different tradeoff than bragging rights about output.
#13
10-02-2010, 12:00 PM
I took a minute to take a quick look at one example of their product:
https://www.dcpowerinc.com/alternato...ad-270-sp.html
<table class="data-table" id="product-attribute-specs-table" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="first odd"><td class="label">Mounting Type</td> <td class="data last">Direct fit to OEM Mounting</td> </tr> <tr class="even"> <td class="label">Output Voltage</td> <td class="data last">14.8</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="label">Idle Amperage</td> <td class="data last">200</td> </tr> <tr class="even"> <td class="label">Hot Idle Amperage @ 200ºF</td> <td class="data last">170</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="label">Max Amperage</td> <td class="data last">270</td> </tr> <tr class="even"> <td class="label">Hot Max Amperage @ 200ºF</td> <td class="data last">255</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="label">Positive output stud</td> <td class="data last">8MMx1.25 Copper </td> </tr> <tr class="even"> <td class="label">Voltage Regulator Temperature Compensation</td> <td class="data last">Yes w/ Thermal Protection</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="label">Rectifier</td> <td class="data last">6 75 amp press fit diodes</td> </tr> <tr class="even"> <td class="label">Pulley</td> <td class="data last">Custom machined aluminum alloy 7K</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="label">PCM Friendly</td> <td class="data last">Yes - Adapter Harness Included</td> </tr> <tr class="last even"> <td class="label">Warranty Period</td> <td class="data last">2 Year Standard Replacement</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="data-table" id="product-attribute-specs-table" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="data"> Description
The TAD-270 SP series alternator is a component of a next generation high efficiency, severe duty charging system specifically engineered for DC Power Engineering. This system consists of a 270 Amp alternator and internal regulator. The alternator produces a maximum of 270 amps and will produce a minimum of 170 amps continually at low idle speeds and maximum output above 1800 engine RPM. The alternator has a maximum efficiency in excess of 75 percent. The rectifier is mounted onboard the alternator and consists of 6 75 amp press fit diodes. The brush holder assembly and slip ring are environmentally protected and the bearings are heavy-duty, oversized premium bearings. The alternator housings are precision-machined cast aluminum and all components are of OEM quality. All major components being carefully chosen for maximum performance and reliability.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="data"> Technology
This new charging system features an advanced proprietary stator winding of a new design that maximizes efficiency with near 80 percent sectional density of the winding coupled with very low coil resistance. This gives the alternator maximum low speed output, as well as a 90% reduction of magnetic pulsation with the stator windings built in cancel circuit to minimize electrical noise. The internal regulator is a proprietary design advanced multifunction digital regulator that completely integrates into the vehicles PCM through the OEM wiring harness to retain all vehicle specific functions such as internal temperature compensation, lamp terminal monitoring, load response control, and alternator load factor.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="data"> Mounting
The TAD-270 SP series alternator is specially designed to mount directly in the OEM mounting location with no modification. All electrical connections shall be in the original locations. The alternator features a custom machined drive pulley for increased output at idle speeds and retains OEM belt length. The pulley is Custom machined aluminum alloy 7K and hard anodized coating for wear resistance and durability.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="data"> Performance
The Ford OEM alternator is rated at 60 amps with 60 amps at idle. Engine idle is ~550 RPMs without the A/C on and ~650 RPMs with the A/C running. The supplied alternator makes 170 amps at normal engine idle, and ~200 amps with the A/C on at fast idle. The vehicle needs a maximum of 160 amps to supply existing electrical loads with all accessories on leaving little room for additional accessories. The supplied alternator will supply an additional 110 amps of available output at low idle, and 140 amps additional at high idle, and up to 210 amps additional at highway speeds.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="data"> Durability
The TAD-270 SP series alternator is manufactured to the highest quality standards in the USA with premium USA made or sourced components for the highest quality possible. All of our high output alternator’s parts are carefully chosen for the maximum durability, dependability and proven performance in the field.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
The TAD-270 SP series alternator is a component of a next generation high efficiency, severe duty charging system specifically engineered for DC Power Engineering. This system consists of a 270 Amp alternator and internal regulator. The alternator produces a maximum of 270 amps and will produce a minimum of 170 amps continually at low idle speeds and maximum output above 1800 engine RPM. The alternator has a maximum efficiency in excess of 75 percent. The rectifier is mounted onboard the alternator and consists of 6 75 amp press fit diodes. The brush holder assembly and slip ring are environmentally protected and the bearings are heavy-duty, oversized premium bearings. The alternator housings are precision-machined cast aluminum and all components are of OEM quality. All major components being carefully chosen for maximum performance and reliability.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="data"> Technology
This new charging system features an advanced proprietary stator winding of a new design that maximizes efficiency with near 80 percent sectional density of the winding coupled with very low coil resistance. This gives the alternator maximum low speed output, as well as a 90% reduction of magnetic pulsation with the stator windings built in cancel circuit to minimize electrical noise. The internal regulator is a proprietary design advanced multifunction digital regulator that completely integrates into the vehicles PCM through the OEM wiring harness to retain all vehicle specific functions such as internal temperature compensation, lamp terminal monitoring, load response control, and alternator load factor.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="data"> Mounting
The TAD-270 SP series alternator is specially designed to mount directly in the OEM mounting location with no modification. All electrical connections shall be in the original locations. The alternator features a custom machined drive pulley for increased output at idle speeds and retains OEM belt length. The pulley is Custom machined aluminum alloy 7K and hard anodized coating for wear resistance and durability.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="data"> Performance
The Ford OEM alternator is rated at 60 amps with 60 amps at idle. Engine idle is ~550 RPMs without the A/C on and ~650 RPMs with the A/C running. The supplied alternator makes 170 amps at normal engine idle, and ~200 amps with the A/C on at fast idle. The vehicle needs a maximum of 160 amps to supply existing electrical loads with all accessories on leaving little room for additional accessories. The supplied alternator will supply an additional 110 amps of available output at low idle, and 140 amps additional at high idle, and up to 210 amps additional at highway speeds.
</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="data"> Durability
The TAD-270 SP series alternator is manufactured to the highest quality standards in the USA with premium USA made or sourced components for the highest quality possible. All of our high output alternator’s parts are carefully chosen for the maximum durability, dependability and proven performance in the field.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
I ask that if a DC Power sales / technical rep is reading this, please feel free to come and help me understand your product.
Based in the published specs,
The 270 amp alternator is rated at 170amp "hot" @200F.
That is respectable.
IMHO, it is technically impractical to design a bona fide 200amp @200F, 80%+ duty cycle alternator without going to an outboard rectifier that is separately cooled.
True, you can do it with some esoteric / oil or high tech air cooling systems, but that is not this one.
Almost all truck / bus alternators rated over 200amp are using some type of oil cooling or something else to get rid of the heat.
Heat output --- and getting rid of it before it fries the most heat sensitive electronics and solder joints --- is the No. 1 limiting factor in an under hood automotive grade alternator.
I would love to see the detailed engineering / validation data for this alternator, but in the absence of such data, I would say, I personally would rate this as follows:
120 amp on a 100% duty cycle, at up to 200F.
Or, 270 amp claimed output --- at 50% duty cycle.
These guesses may be conservative, but I have to consider the alternator may be used under scorching underhood temperatures found in some parts of the USA.
With the claimed 75% efficiency, it means 25% or more (since efficiency is often lower at lower output) of the energy generated is dissipated as heat.
Work that out with the highest underhood temperatures you can expect, and the TDP is quite something running the electronics in that casing.
IMHO, if I were to customize this alternator, I can probably upgrade its "hot" rating 25% or more simply by moving the rectifier to an external box that is air cooled with a separate air intake.
#14
10-02-2010, 12:12 PM
FTE Legend
Originally Posted by gearloose1
IMHO, it is technically impractical to design a bona fide 200amp @200F, 80%+ duty cycle alternator without going to an outboard rectifier that is separately cooled.
From the link I posted previously:
Pictured on the right is the rear housing assembly of our 270 SP unit designed for this same vehicle. Note that the housing is not nearly as deep, as it was designed to have the rectifier and regulator both mounted externally. When fully assembled, both are covered by a plastic cover designed to provide insulation and excellent air flow.
Here's the image, with the plastic cover removed:
Last edited by SteveBricks; 10-02-2010 at 12:16 PM.
#15
10-02-2010, 12:26 PM
Please NOTE:
I have no relationship with the firm mentioned below, except they have the information I need online.
The gold standard (for ambulances) is the Mitsubishi alternator. The factory single alternator is kept for the base vehicle, and the accessories are run on the 2nd alternator.
Some installs just use a single Mitsubishi.
Described below:
High Output Alternator, Ford Truck, Van & SUV Dual Rectifier Upgrade
This shop also sell a "outboard" rectifier kit that can covert any alternator to "heavy duty".
Quicktifier Remote Rectifier HHO High Output Alternator High Voltage
Quicktifier Remote Bridge Rectifier System™
dual/remote rectifier alternator system
* Attaches to your Alternator making them last longer and gives you more of the power that you paid for!
* Reduces "Noise" in car audio systems and two way radios because of the greater number of diodes.
* Bridge rectifier failure is the #1 cause of alternator failure in higher electrical demand situations.
* Remote Bridge Rectifier helps get heat away from your alternator.
* Greater number of diodes reduces thermal falloff, which is the reduction in power transfer as the alternator heats up (Improves Cold/Hot rating).
* For Trucks, Big Rigs, Heavy Duty, Industrial, Farm, Off-Road and other applications
* Works with Permanent Magnet Alternators (PMA). Quicktifier Diodes are rated at 12V/70 Amps, up to 300 volts AC
* Great if:
o Your alternator has failed one too many times (Saves you time and money).
o You've added equipment and are concerned about your alternator holding up (Makes your alternator tougher).
o Your running an HHO, Hydroxy or other constant electrical draw type system
o You've increased the amperage of your existing alternator and it still has a single bridge rectifier.
o Your a Stereo Installer, you've installed a stereo system and your concerned the client's alternator may not hold up (Make extra money installing the Quicktifier™, Call for commercial discounts). Every time you sell a high watt system you should be installing the Quicktifier™.
o The Quictifier 210 & 420™ remote rectifier systems are great for BMW, Toyota, Lexus, Acura, Honda, Mercedes, Chrysler, Pontiac, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, VW, Buick, Lincoln, Hummer, Chevrolet, GMC, and just about every vehicle on the market.
I have no relationship with the firm mentioned below, except they have the information I need online.
The gold standard (for ambulances) is the Mitsubishi alternator. The factory single alternator is kept for the base vehicle, and the accessories are run on the 2nd alternator.
Some installs just use a single Mitsubishi.
Described below:
Ford Truck, Van & SUV owners
If you need more power from your alternator the answer may be the MITSUBISHI Dual Rectifier Monster alternator.
SEE THE DIFFERENCE..........Above are shown the Ford Motorcraft 3G 95 amp small case type alternator (left), the 3G 130 amp large case (middle) and the Monster 215 amp Dual Rectifier MITSUBISHI alternator.
At 32 pounds the Mitsubishi dual rectifier alternator is twice the weight of even the large case 130 amp 3G alternator (15lbs). It's like two alternators in one.
This Monster Dual Rectifier alternator will run at a continuous 215 amps hot without fail. It will do almost 300 amps cold at full output.
If your Ford vehicle uses the 3 bolt side type mounting like the mounting shown above you may be able to fit this MONSTER alternator to your vehicle.
The MITSUBISHI dual rectifier alternator for ford vehicles (right) as compared to our 250 amp Dual Rectifier CS-144 type alternator (left). As you can see the Mitsubishi Dual Rectifier alternator is much larger than our Extreme Duty Dual Rectifier alternator.
If you need more power from your alternator the answer may be the MITSUBISHI Dual Rectifier Monster alternator.
SEE THE DIFFERENCE..........Above are shown the Ford Motorcraft 3G 95 amp small case type alternator (left), the 3G 130 amp large case (middle) and the Monster 215 amp Dual Rectifier MITSUBISHI alternator.
At 32 pounds the Mitsubishi dual rectifier alternator is twice the weight of even the large case 130 amp 3G alternator (15lbs). It's like two alternators in one.
This Monster Dual Rectifier alternator will run at a continuous 215 amps hot without fail. It will do almost 300 amps cold at full output.
If your Ford vehicle uses the 3 bolt side type mounting like the mounting shown above you may be able to fit this MONSTER alternator to your vehicle.
The MITSUBISHI dual rectifier alternator for ford vehicles (right) as compared to our 250 amp Dual Rectifier CS-144 type alternator (left). As you can see the Mitsubishi Dual Rectifier alternator is much larger than our Extreme Duty Dual Rectifier alternator.
High Output Alternator, Ford Truck, Van & SUV Dual Rectifier Upgrade
This shop also sell a "outboard" rectifier kit that can covert any alternator to "heavy duty".
Quicktifier Remote Rectifier HHO High Output Alternator High Voltage
Quicktifier Remote Bridge Rectifier System™
dual/remote rectifier alternator system
* Attaches to your Alternator making them last longer and gives you more of the power that you paid for!
* Reduces "Noise" in car audio systems and two way radios because of the greater number of diodes.
* Bridge rectifier failure is the #1 cause of alternator failure in higher electrical demand situations.
* Remote Bridge Rectifier helps get heat away from your alternator.
* Greater number of diodes reduces thermal falloff, which is the reduction in power transfer as the alternator heats up (Improves Cold/Hot rating).
* For Trucks, Big Rigs, Heavy Duty, Industrial, Farm, Off-Road and other applications
* Works with Permanent Magnet Alternators (PMA). Quicktifier Diodes are rated at 12V/70 Amps, up to 300 volts AC
* Great if:
o Your alternator has failed one too many times (Saves you time and money).
o You've added equipment and are concerned about your alternator holding up (Makes your alternator tougher).
o Your running an HHO, Hydroxy or other constant electrical draw type system
o You've increased the amperage of your existing alternator and it still has a single bridge rectifier.
o Your a Stereo Installer, you've installed a stereo system and your concerned the client's alternator may not hold up (Make extra money installing the Quicktifier™, Call for commercial discounts). Every time you sell a high watt system you should be installing the Quicktifier™.
o The Quictifier 210 & 420™ remote rectifier systems are great for BMW, Toyota, Lexus, Acura, Honda, Mercedes, Chrysler, Pontiac, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, VW, Buick, Lincoln, Hummer, Chevrolet, GMC, and just about every vehicle on the market.