460-F250-coversion: Will Drive Shaft fit?
#1
06-16-1999, 01:44 PM
460-F250-coversion: Will Drive Shaft fit?
I was kindly told that I would need diff motor mounts/perches to put a 460 in where a 360 used to live. I forgot to ask if my current drive shaft will fit to it, or will it have to be modified?
Should I at least try to get the first drive shaft section when I get the motor?
Thanks in advance,
Rod
Should I at least try to get the first drive shaft section when I get the motor?
Thanks in advance,
Rod
#2
06-16-1999, 06:50 PM
#3
06-19-1999, 10:39 AM
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460-F250-coversion: Will Drive Shaft fit?
If you are planing on installing a 460 where there was a 360 you will have to change the transmission also, as the 360 and 460 have different bolt patterns on the trans. This being the case you will probaly have to change the drive shaft out also.
#4
06-19-1999, 01:40 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
460-F250-coversion: Will Drive Shaft fit?
To replace an FE (352,360,390) engine with a 460:
The last year Ford put the FE engine into Ford pickups was 1976. Assuming your truck came stock with the 360, you have different options depending on whether you have a manual or automatic.
Manual: L&L in Texas sells an adapter bellhousing which will adapt your manual transmission to the 460. It is expensive, approx. $500, but transmission location or driveshaft length will not need to be changed.
Automatic: An automatic for the 460 will be needed because the bellhousing in an automatic is integral with the transmission, so the auto for an FE engine is different than the auto for a 460 engine. I don't know what will need to be done to mount the 460 auto and connect it to the driveshaft.
Different engine frame mounts will be needed, as the 460 cannot be bolted to the 360 frame mounts. Available from either L&L or Advance Adapters in California.
The engine accessories from the 460 engine (power steering, alternator, etc) will be needed, as they are different from the 360.
There will be "minor" adaptations, such as accelerator linkage, clutch bell crank, auto or manual transmission shift linkage, etc.
When all is considered, it is expensive to replace an FE big block with a 429/460 big block. I don't know what you are looking for, but for low rpm torque, the 390 stroke is longer than the 429 big block (3.78" vs 3.59") and almost as long as the 460 big block (3.78" vs 3.85", difference = .07"). A 360 block can be bored .06" over, and 390 crankshaft and connecting rods installed, and a 360 will then be a 390. Another option is to replace the 360 with a 390, and bore the 390 .06" over, which would make it approx. 420 cubic inches. The 390 is a bolt in replacement for the 360, and, all 360 accessories will bolt onto the 390. Yet another option is to replace the FE 360 with a FE 428. Although the 428 is a bit harder to find and more expensive than the 390, it has an even longer stroke than the 460 (3.98" vs 3.85").
The disadvantages of staying with the FE engine is that it isn't a thin wall block so is heavier than the 429/460 big block, and the heads are also an older design and not as efficient as the 429/460. Because of oiling passage design, it will not safely run high rpm, whereas a 429 can. Because the 460 big block has a longer stroke than the 429, it isn't considered a high rpm engine, although should safely turn higher rpm than most any FE big block except for the very rare and expensive "side oiler" 427.
Ford V8 engine to bellhousing bolt patterns are:
FE Engine - 352, 360, 390, 428 (same)
Big block - 351M, 400M, 429, 460 (same)
Small block - 289, 302, 351W, 351C (same)
See <a href="http://www.wrljet.com">http://www.wrljet.com</a> for lots more Ford engine information.
I'm not associated with L&L in any way, but I've found them to be very helpful and to have lots of patience and advice about swapping the 460 into older Ford pickups.
Good luck, let us all know what you did, what it cost, and and how it came out.
The last year Ford put the FE engine into Ford pickups was 1976. Assuming your truck came stock with the 360, you have different options depending on whether you have a manual or automatic.
Manual: L&L in Texas sells an adapter bellhousing which will adapt your manual transmission to the 460. It is expensive, approx. $500, but transmission location or driveshaft length will not need to be changed.
Automatic: An automatic for the 460 will be needed because the bellhousing in an automatic is integral with the transmission, so the auto for an FE engine is different than the auto for a 460 engine. I don't know what will need to be done to mount the 460 auto and connect it to the driveshaft.
Different engine frame mounts will be needed, as the 460 cannot be bolted to the 360 frame mounts. Available from either L&L or Advance Adapters in California.
The engine accessories from the 460 engine (power steering, alternator, etc) will be needed, as they are different from the 360.
There will be "minor" adaptations, such as accelerator linkage, clutch bell crank, auto or manual transmission shift linkage, etc.
When all is considered, it is expensive to replace an FE big block with a 429/460 big block. I don't know what you are looking for, but for low rpm torque, the 390 stroke is longer than the 429 big block (3.78" vs 3.59") and almost as long as the 460 big block (3.78" vs 3.85", difference = .07"). A 360 block can be bored .06" over, and 390 crankshaft and connecting rods installed, and a 360 will then be a 390. Another option is to replace the 360 with a 390, and bore the 390 .06" over, which would make it approx. 420 cubic inches. The 390 is a bolt in replacement for the 360, and, all 360 accessories will bolt onto the 390. Yet another option is to replace the FE 360 with a FE 428. Although the 428 is a bit harder to find and more expensive than the 390, it has an even longer stroke than the 460 (3.98" vs 3.85").
The disadvantages of staying with the FE engine is that it isn't a thin wall block so is heavier than the 429/460 big block, and the heads are also an older design and not as efficient as the 429/460. Because of oiling passage design, it will not safely run high rpm, whereas a 429 can. Because the 460 big block has a longer stroke than the 429, it isn't considered a high rpm engine, although should safely turn higher rpm than most any FE big block except for the very rare and expensive "side oiler" 427.
Ford V8 engine to bellhousing bolt patterns are:
FE Engine - 352, 360, 390, 428 (same)
Big block - 351M, 400M, 429, 460 (same)
Small block - 289, 302, 351W, 351C (same)
See <a href="http://www.wrljet.com">http://www.wrljet.com</a> for lots more Ford engine information.
I'm not associated with L&L in any way, but I've found them to be very helpful and to have lots of patience and advice about swapping the 460 into older Ford pickups.
Good luck, let us all know what you did, what it cost, and and how it came out.
#5
06-19-1999, 01:50 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
460-F250-coversion: Will Drive Shaft fit?
To replace an FE (352,360,390) engine with a 460:
The last year Ford put the FE engine into Ford pickups was 1976. Assuming your truck came stock with the 360, you have different options depending on whether you have a manual or automatic.
Manual: L&L in Texas sells an adapter bellhousing which will adapt your manual transmission to the 460. It is expensive,approx. $500, but transmission location or driveshaft length will not need to be changed.
Automatic: An automatic for the 460 will be needed because the bellhousing in an automatic is integral with the transmission, so the auto for an FE engine is different than the auto for a 460 engine. I don't know what will need to be done to mount the 460 auto and connect it to the driveshaft.
Different engine frame mounts will be needed, as the 460 cannot be bolted to the 360 frame mounts. Available from either L&L or Advance Adapters in California.
The engine accessories from the 460 engine (power steering, alternator, etc) will be needed, as they are different from the 360.
There will be "minor" adaptations, such as accelerator linkage, clutch bell crank, auto or manual transmission shift linkage, etc.
When all is considered, it is expensive to replace an FE big block with a 429/460 big block. I don't know what you are looking for, but for low rpm torque, the 390 stroke is longer than the 429 big block (3.78" vs 3.59") and almost as long as the 460 big block (3.78" vs 3.85", difference = .07"). A 360 block can be bored .06" over, and 390 crankshaft and connecting rods installed, and a 360 will then be a 390. Another option is to replace the 360 with a 390, and bore the 390 .06" over, which would make it approx. 420 cubic inches. The 390 is a bolt in replacement for the 360, and, all 360 accessories will bolt onto the 390. Yet another option is to replace the FE 360 with a FE 428. Although the 428 is a bit harder to find and more expensive than the 390, it has an even longer stroke than the 460 (3.98" vs 3.85").
The disadvantages of staying with the FE engine is that it isn't a thin wall block so is heavier than the 429/460 big block, and the heads are also an older design and not as efficient as the 429/460. Because of oiling passage design, it will not safely run high rpm, whereas a 429 can. Because the 460 big block has a longer stroke than the 429, it isn't considered a high rpm engine, although should safely turn higher rpm than most any FE big block except for the very rare and expensive "side oiler" 427.
Ford V8 engine to bellhousing bolt patterns are:
FE Engine - 352, 360, 390, 428 (same)
Big block - 351M, 400M, 429, 460 (same)
Small block - 289, 302, 351W, 351C (same)
See <a href="http://www.wrljet.com">http://www.wrljet.com</a> for lots more Ford engine information.
I'm not associated with L&L in any way, but I've found them to be very helpful and to have lots of patience and advice about swapping the 460 into older Ford pickups.
Good luck, let us all know what you did, what it cost, and and how it came out.
The last year Ford put the FE engine into Ford pickups was 1976. Assuming your truck came stock with the 360, you have different options depending on whether you have a manual or automatic.
Manual: L&L in Texas sells an adapter bellhousing which will adapt your manual transmission to the 460. It is expensive,approx. $500, but transmission location or driveshaft length will not need to be changed.
Automatic: An automatic for the 460 will be needed because the bellhousing in an automatic is integral with the transmission, so the auto for an FE engine is different than the auto for a 460 engine. I don't know what will need to be done to mount the 460 auto and connect it to the driveshaft.
Different engine frame mounts will be needed, as the 460 cannot be bolted to the 360 frame mounts. Available from either L&L or Advance Adapters in California.
The engine accessories from the 460 engine (power steering, alternator, etc) will be needed, as they are different from the 360.
There will be "minor" adaptations, such as accelerator linkage, clutch bell crank, auto or manual transmission shift linkage, etc.
When all is considered, it is expensive to replace an FE big block with a 429/460 big block. I don't know what you are looking for, but for low rpm torque, the 390 stroke is longer than the 429 big block (3.78" vs 3.59") and almost as long as the 460 big block (3.78" vs 3.85", difference = .07"). A 360 block can be bored .06" over, and 390 crankshaft and connecting rods installed, and a 360 will then be a 390. Another option is to replace the 360 with a 390, and bore the 390 .06" over, which would make it approx. 420 cubic inches. The 390 is a bolt in replacement for the 360, and, all 360 accessories will bolt onto the 390. Yet another option is to replace the FE 360 with a FE 428. Although the 428 is a bit harder to find and more expensive than the 390, it has an even longer stroke than the 460 (3.98" vs 3.85").
The disadvantages of staying with the FE engine is that it isn't a thin wall block so is heavier than the 429/460 big block, and the heads are also an older design and not as efficient as the 429/460. Because of oiling passage design, it will not safely run high rpm, whereas a 429 can. Because the 460 big block has a longer stroke than the 429, it isn't considered a high rpm engine, although should safely turn higher rpm than most any FE big block except for the very rare and expensive "side oiler" 427.
Ford V8 engine to bellhousing bolt patterns are:
FE Engine - 352, 360, 390, 428 (same)
Big block - 351M, 400M, 429, 460 (same)
Small block - 289, 302, 351W, 351C (same)
See <a href="http://www.wrljet.com">http://www.wrljet.com</a> for lots more Ford engine information.
I'm not associated with L&L in any way, but I've found them to be very helpful and to have lots of patience and advice about swapping the 460 into older Ford pickups.
Good luck, let us all know what you did, what it cost, and and how it came out.
#6
06-20-1999, 11:33 AM
460-F250-coversion: Will Drive Shaft fit?
The best thing to do is get the engine, trans and both drive line segments from a donor vehicle. This would be sweet.
I'm in the middle of converting a '71 F-350 from a 360 to a 400M. The previous owner began the conversion to a 460 but lost interest. I got the truck with the 460 & C6 resting in the truck but not hooked-up. They are now resting in my garage.
I have a '77 Ranchero with a 400M and C6. I rebuild the engine and trans in '95 and they have only 500 miles on them since the rebuild. The Ranchero was a backup car and just sat most of the time. It needs a lot of work so we decided to junk it and keep the power train.
I bought new motor perches from a local wrecking yard ($40 for the pair, ouch but I needed them) and bought new motor mounts from Auto Zone ($22 for the pair). I needed new motor mounts because of differences between the Ranchero and the truck mounting methods.
The 2-piece drive line is totally different for the two engine families. The '71 front segment bolts to the back of the FE C6 whereas the 400M and 460 C6 uses a slip joint. Also, the C6 tail section for the FE is 7.5" long and the tail section for the 400/460 C6 13.5" long (rough measurements). The longer tail section would cause the front segment of the drive shaft to make a fairly sharp angle to the center support of the drive line. This may be too great an angle and cause premature wear of the universal joints.
Another problem is that my '71 has dual fuel tanks. For safety purposes I'm going to remove the in-cab tank and use the under bed tank (maybe even install a second tank above where the spare tire goes). The front under-bed tank appears to extend almost to the centerline of the frame so the center support for the drive line is slightly off center.
The two options I'm considering are to take both C6 tranys to a local transmission shop to see if I can swap tail sections. I would then be able to use the original two-segment drive line. The other option is to use the 400M and unmodified C6 and then run a custom, one piece drive line to the rear end. I could start with the Ranchero drive line and have it modified (most likely lenghtened) if needed.
Next weekend I will do a trial fit of the 400M and C6 to see how they fit and if I can get a one-piece drive line to clear the fuel tank (the problem is actually the shelf the fuel tank sits on). This weekend I'm cleaning 28 years of oil drippings and road grime from the frame and engine compartment.
This is a lot of work and most people think I'm crazy. My reasons are that I need a heavy-duty pickup and I live in Northern California. I don't want to have to smog check my truck every two years, I want to modify the motor for power and torque, and I had a 400M and C6 that run great.
Good luck and let's keep in touch.
Bruce
I'm in the middle of converting a '71 F-350 from a 360 to a 400M. The previous owner began the conversion to a 460 but lost interest. I got the truck with the 460 & C6 resting in the truck but not hooked-up. They are now resting in my garage.
I have a '77 Ranchero with a 400M and C6. I rebuild the engine and trans in '95 and they have only 500 miles on them since the rebuild. The Ranchero was a backup car and just sat most of the time. It needs a lot of work so we decided to junk it and keep the power train.
I bought new motor perches from a local wrecking yard ($40 for the pair, ouch but I needed them) and bought new motor mounts from Auto Zone ($22 for the pair). I needed new motor mounts because of differences between the Ranchero and the truck mounting methods.
The 2-piece drive line is totally different for the two engine families. The '71 front segment bolts to the back of the FE C6 whereas the 400M and 460 C6 uses a slip joint. Also, the C6 tail section for the FE is 7.5" long and the tail section for the 400/460 C6 13.5" long (rough measurements). The longer tail section would cause the front segment of the drive shaft to make a fairly sharp angle to the center support of the drive line. This may be too great an angle and cause premature wear of the universal joints.
Another problem is that my '71 has dual fuel tanks. For safety purposes I'm going to remove the in-cab tank and use the under bed tank (maybe even install a second tank above where the spare tire goes). The front under-bed tank appears to extend almost to the centerline of the frame so the center support for the drive line is slightly off center.
The two options I'm considering are to take both C6 tranys to a local transmission shop to see if I can swap tail sections. I would then be able to use the original two-segment drive line. The other option is to use the 400M and unmodified C6 and then run a custom, one piece drive line to the rear end. I could start with the Ranchero drive line and have it modified (most likely lenghtened) if needed.
Next weekend I will do a trial fit of the 400M and C6 to see how they fit and if I can get a one-piece drive line to clear the fuel tank (the problem is actually the shelf the fuel tank sits on). This weekend I'm cleaning 28 years of oil drippings and road grime from the frame and engine compartment.
This is a lot of work and most people think I'm crazy. My reasons are that I need a heavy-duty pickup and I live in Northern California. I don't want to have to smog check my truck every two years, I want to modify the motor for power and torque, and I had a 400M and C6 that run great.
Good luck and let's keep in touch.
Bruce
#7
06-20-1999, 10:21 PM
460-F250-coversion: Will Drive Shaft fit?
rodr:
I got more done this weekend than I thought. I got the 400M and C6 resting in place with the trans mount attached.
The stock drive line for the Ranchero was 61" long. For my '71 F-350 I need a drive line 73" long. It appears the drive line will clear the fuel tank shelf if I relocate a few brackets.
My big concern is if 73" is too long for a drive line. I will call a local drive line builder tomorrow to see if it is feasable.
Bruce
I got more done this weekend than I thought. I got the 400M and C6 resting in place with the trans mount attached.
The stock drive line for the Ranchero was 61" long. For my '71 F-350 I need a drive line 73" long. It appears the drive line will clear the fuel tank shelf if I relocate a few brackets.
My big concern is if 73" is too long for a drive line. I will call a local drive line builder tomorrow to see if it is feasable.
Bruce
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#8
06-21-1999, 08:34 AM
#9
06-21-1999, 02:16 PM
460-F250-coversion: Will Drive Shaft fit?
Guys, thanks for the info and experiences!
This past friday, my father in law and I pulled a 460 & tranny out of a 73 Lincoln.
Man, that IS a big engine!
The head was stamped D2VE-AA and there is an engine tag by the coil, I'm not at home now, but I think it was:
73 -- 12
KK (some #)
I got all the accessories, the drive shaft and the tranny crossmember.
I'll have to take another look at the drive shaft differences. I know on my truck that the shaft narrows at the back and maybe has a universal joint at the junction?? The Lincoln shaft is all one diameter - one piece.
I was told that the 460 was actually an option for the 1970 F250, but my Chiltons book doesn't seem to support that. Just thought if it was an option that finding needed parts would be easier.
"FF" Do you have phone numbers and/or web sites for L&L or advanced adapters?
Thanks again,
Rod
This past friday, my father in law and I pulled a 460 & tranny out of a 73 Lincoln.
Man, that IS a big engine!
The head was stamped D2VE-AA and there is an engine tag by the coil, I'm not at home now, but I think it was:
73 -- 12
KK (some #)
I got all the accessories, the drive shaft and the tranny crossmember.
I'll have to take another look at the drive shaft differences. I know on my truck that the shaft narrows at the back and maybe has a universal joint at the junction?? The Lincoln shaft is all one diameter - one piece.
I was told that the 460 was actually an option for the 1970 F250, but my Chiltons book doesn't seem to support that. Just thought if it was an option that finding needed parts would be easier.
"FF" Do you have phone numbers and/or web sites for L&L or advanced adapters?
Thanks again,
Rod
#10
06-21-1999, 07:29 PM
460-F250-coversion: Will Drive Shaft fit?
John:
You're right. I talked to the drive shaft builder today and he said 73" is OK for a light duty truck but is too long for a F-350. A heavy duty truck would put too much stress on it and probably break it when you least want to (like while towing a loaded horse trailer uphill).
I'll take both shafts to him, along with the distance from the 2-piece drive shaft center bearing to the rear of the trans output shaft. With these parts and measurements he will splice the front of the Ranchero shaft to the front segment of the 2-piece shaft.
All told, it should cost $50 to $75.
Rod:
If your experience is anything like mine, you will need to have the two drive shafts converted into a new shaft to have everything fit. Its a bit of work and cost but it's cheap insurance.
Bruce
You're right. I talked to the drive shaft builder today and he said 73" is OK for a light duty truck but is too long for a F-350. A heavy duty truck would put too much stress on it and probably break it when you least want to (like while towing a loaded horse trailer uphill).
I'll take both shafts to him, along with the distance from the 2-piece drive shaft center bearing to the rear of the trans output shaft. With these parts and measurements he will splice the front of the Ranchero shaft to the front segment of the 2-piece shaft.
All told, it should cost $50 to $75.
Rod:
If your experience is anything like mine, you will need to have the two drive shafts converted into a new shaft to have everything fit. Its a bit of work and cost but it's cheap insurance.
Bruce
