What other mods do you have?

 

DDP Stage II, 6.0 cooler ,garrett 38R turbo ,TW programming,17 SD Pump soon to be changed with a pulse.

 

Since a few people brought up the HPOP, may I direct this qestion towards Bob. Why should I buy a Pulse pump as opposed to a Stealth or 17 degree HPOP? Not trying to be a wiseguy, just looking for facts and opinions. I want to go with something that will run Stage 2 injectors?

 

Thank you for the info, Bob. I'll be looking over your site. I have added your fuel system and PULSE pump on the "If I have the money" list of mods I want to make. Gotta take care of the torque converter and tranny issues first.

 

Sorry it took so long to reply- I've been getting ready for the event in Steele AL this weekend.

I can't make any comments about a product that I haven't seen, so I can't give you any comparisons there. Sorry.


I'll do my best in regards to the 17* portion.

The simple answer would be, that if your current pump or a 17* can maintain what your asking of it, then there is no need for anything bigger.

However.......The response of the PULSE is where the main advantage comes in, even comparing to a 17 that can maintain. Your pcm program calls for a certain pressure at a certain rpm, load, speed, etc. That doesn't mean the pump can actually produce that pressure as fast as the pcm makes these changes. It "builds" to the demanded pressure as fast as the volume of the pump allows. So, when you go to WOT from a stand, the pcm may be calling for 3000 (for example), your pump may take 3 seconds to reach it.
In the PULSE, we ran logs showing the ICP change from 500psi to 3000psi before a single engine rpm increase was logged. What this can equate to is better atomization, better fuel economy, less smoke, more power where you need it, faster acceleration, better towing power, etc. All this while producing the same max pressure and same hp levels.

That is assumming you left the same programs in your truck as you ran with your stock pump.

Now, with this extra volume comes more options. You can ask for a little higher ICP at WOT. There is most definately an advantage from going from 2800-2900 (the normal truck program) to 3000-3100psi. You can also ask for more ICP at cruising speeds for better towing power and mileage.

We toyed with making even larger displacement pumps, and have a few sitting on the "who knows, someone will want it" table, but there is a line we decided to not cross. More oil to get the Powerstroke running as it should and power most injectors on the market seemed to be the right size to us. it fits 99.99% of all DIeselsite customer's needs. It bolted in- no modification to anything else was needed, and we have maybe only a small extra load on the engine oil. These pumps sheer oil bad. They create tremendous amounts on heat, and running a pump greatly oversized than what you needed would simply reduce your oil change interval and further aerate your oil. (Foaming is not aeration- totally different principles)

We ran a 15 gallon hydraulic tank (That's almost 4 times the oil sump in a PSD!) with baffles and could not keep the oil from aerating with two coupled PULSE pumps. This was not even on a MOVING TRUCK sloshing the sump.

So, the argument in the market will always be "mine's bigger" , but after you have enough oil to give you instant response and maintained pressure at WOT, anything larger just robs horsepower to turn the pump, robs oil change miles, and reduced lubrication to the engine from increase aeration from excessive circulation. Then I see people wanting larger LPOPs? - if this is a daily driver, you'd better add a 25 gallon oil tank in the bed and remote recirc pumps to let the oil settle out.

If this is a dedicated race truck- then go for it.

Bob

 

So if I understand correctly the Pulse is better with racers.
Question: In any of you guys opinion will the "stacked" HPOP's perform similiar to the pulse? I guess what I mean will it be able to jump up the the proper pressure quickly if it was punched to WOT from stand?
I have a 17* that I plan on putting my old 15* on via stealth or something similiar.

Thanx a million Bob for that explanation. I learned something from you today.

 

Well, what it comes down to is this; my truck is a daily driver, but I still want to lay down some bigger power. Are you saying I should not invest in a Pulse pump and go with a 17 degree? Granted, dollar wise, I'd rather go with the SuperDuty pump, but I want something that's going to perform very good with stage IIs. I don't really want to get into remote oil tanks and the related parts. Will the Pulse really mess up lubrication and take power from my engine? Whether it's right or not, I change oil(Rotella T 15W40) about every 5k miles, what would I be looking at for a new oil change interval? So many questions

 

A lot of good info on the this thread. So let me get this straight. The CPR is an entire fuel system? The stock pump is not used anymore? Or is this just a pre-pump setup?

 

The last two posts showed me that I didn't get my point across correctly. So, I'll try to redo this. Sorry for any confusion.


This statement was correct. If your programming only calls for 2900 psi and a stock 17* pump has no problem supplying that then you may be happy sticking with that pump. There is no "NEED" for anything bigger.

BUT, here's why you may want to consider the upgrade to the PULSE even if your pump can do the job with current programs:

THIS IS NOT ONLY A BENEFIT FOR RACERS...as I said: What this can equate to is better atomization, better fuel economy, less smoke, more power where you need it, faster acceleration, better towing power, etc. All this while producing the same max pressure and same hp levels.

In my example I used WOT from a stand...that was one scenario that I had specific numbers to toss out. The same principle would apply in any driving situation. Any time you accelerate. So when pulling your trailer through town from stop light to stop light, cruising down the interstate and deciding to pass someone, every situation applies any time you accelerate. Performance throughout the ENTIRE POWERBAND is enhanced. This benefits all truck setups.

The forums have taught many people - incorrectly - to decide on the upgrade to high pressure oil pumps based on whether or not their factory pump maintained pressure at WOT. When I said:

That was a technically correct answer, the truck will perform as it was intended to. I was trying to expand on this with the rest of the quote to explain why this is NOT necessarily the BEST answer. I obviously didn't get the point across. So, right now let me clarify.

Some people will be completely satisfied with the performance out of the stock 17* pump because they never intend to change programming, add more modifications, desire more horsepower, etc. This pump has been in every truck from day one in 15* or 17* form and those trucks are still running. Alot of people still run a completely stock truck and are quite happy.

Would I ever run a 17* pump again? NOT A CHANCE IN THE WORLD, nor would anyone who ever tries the PULSE. It makes that much of a difference on ANY set of injectors - from stock to the 300cc I am running.

Now on to the next part of that answer.

HERE'S what you can do if you upgrade to the PULSE that you CAN'T do with a 17*. The following assumes that you have installed the PULSE.

It's really important here to realize that the PULSE had no limitations as far as psi was concerned. It can run 4000+ psi all day long if someone was stupid enough to do it. We run our daily driver at 3200 psi. We've tested settings from 3000 to 3800 for every day driving and racicng and 3200 psi was the most desireable setting and my favorite. Running the PULSE above 3400 is totally unnecessary and resulted in less power and worse times at the track. Keeping the ICP reasonable lets it run like there's no tomorrow without excessive abuse on your truck parts.

That's the end of that sentence. Nothing to read into it. You have to test everything to come up with what's best for your customer base and to actually have the knowledge, testing and comparisons to help others.

The rest of this is it's own point to be made and pretty much says it all about why we feel the PULSE is a pretty cool pump:

Here's where I think I lost alot of people.... everything I wrote next is about EVERY axial piston pump - the stock 15*, 17*, the PULSE and any other axial piston pump in any other application in the world....

The following is a severe example of a grossly oversized pump(s).

Notice this is about DUAL PULSE PUMPS. It's an extreme example that I thought was interesting. It's also the reason I never installed them in my own truck. (It's pretty nice having a test stand) Dual PULSE pumps supply almost 3 1/2 times the output of a stock 17* pump. It's overkill - not necessary - comical - and no Powerstroke - that I know of anyway - needs the volume supplied by two coupled PULSE pumps. Two 15*, two 17* or one of each pump coupled aren't even using their maximum capacity. Some of the fastest trucks in the country are still supplied by twin 17* with oil to spare. So why would there be a need for more than 2x. If you think two pumps is better than one or you already have two pumps - read about our adapter here. Dual pump setups done incorrectly never even come close to providing twice the oil of a stock pump. Cavitation results from poor installation and the rear pump can be starved for oil and will run at partial capacity and have a much shorter life. This causes even more aeration due to the cavitation and hence excessive wear. SO, in a nutshell, too big of a pump setup (or too much oil supply) - or incorrectly installed hpo setups can cause too much aeration which can lead to bad things.

Knowing that dual stock pumps don't even use all they could supply if installed correctly, then the thought of needing or wanting a pump that supplies more than twice or three times or even more than that (DUAL PULSE PUMPS) is silly. It quickly gets to a point where you have diminishing returns. Remember, any oil not used is simply sent back to the oil pan. Useless, no gain, just unused oil and spent HP to move it along with all the other negatives I already listed.

I brought the low pressure oil pump up because I'm getting phone calls asking if a larger low pressure pump would be required to run the PULSE. This should NEVER be considered for any daily driver truck for the reasons I just listed. Bottom line: Bigger is not always better. We like the single PULSE and designed it because we never liked the idea of coupling two pumps together. That's a personal preference and we made something we thought was a better choice for most people. But there is a place for everything and the dual pumps would be necessary to supply the oil the the MOST EXTREME trucks out there. The PULSE wouldn't be big enough AND the DUAL PULSE would just be TOO BIG.

I have also had people say that they are concerned that I used the stock housing because of stripped out threads. Threads are NOT stripped out from high pressure - never have been, never will be. The threads do not get pushed forward and pulled backward from pressure on these pumps. It's a hydraulic pump. Running on the same principles as any other hydraulic pump. Threads are stripped because of overtightening the fittings and in most cases are stripped from dual pump installers pulling the threads unevenly with the balance tubes. Another example of how poor installation can get you into trouble. No one seems to have trouble paying $4500 for a transmission rebuild into a stock housing, why is this housing any different? In both cases, the stock housing in no way represents the quality of the parts inside of it. There are NO WEARABLE ITEMS on the stock HPOP housing and there is no reason not to reuse it.

Look at the chart on my website here and you can see in general what pumps can supply what injectors. You can see in this chart that the stock 17* pump is large enough to supply AD injectors as per Caterpillar (the manufacturer). Further, the 15* supplies AA and the PULSE supplies any injector listed. All of this is based on stock injectors with stock programming. When you run a hotter chip program (and any aftermarket chip for that matter) your injectors demand even higher amounts of oil than this chart shows and this is why many stock pumps will throw 1211 codes on hot chips. Those pumps now only marginally supply the demand of oil for that injector due to programming increases. So while the PULSE easily supplies the BD injector it may only marginally supply BN split shots (the largest injectors listed) after programming changes. In short, it will run the largest injector made as well as a stock pump on stock AD injectors after programming. Not bad for a single bolt in replacement for under $1500.

Since we're discussing the supply needs of injectors and too big of a pump not being a good thing, let me just answer this for you:

So, why is the PULSE not too big for stock injectors?

To answer this question best, let's look at where I hope to go with injectors and HPO Solutions. There has never been another high volume HPOP for the Powerstroke. We've entered new territory with our PULSE. For us, it only makes sense that injectors would now be rated in cc of fuel AND cc of hpo. With this dual rating, customers would be able to know what high pressure oil pump solution would supply their choice of injector. If it is feasible, we'll be adding an injector division to match up fuel systems, high pressure oil solutions and injectors for the needs of the customer. But, if we decide not to manufacture the injectors, at a minimum we'll push a classification system so that customers can make educated decisons on what injectors, HPO and fuel systems are best for them.

To put it all in perspective, I started the design of the PULSE pump in early 2003 - long before the first pumps were coupled or anyone was ever asking for higher oil demand. I don't believe Hybrid 530s were even in production yet. I spend every day of my life working to better the options for the Powerstroke community. The PULSE is the result of years of work.

Back to the question though, what's important to realize here is that grossly oversized pumps are what you need to stay away from. Until a dual rating system is in place, it would be hard to say what is or isn't the correct size, but we can certainly tell what would be grossly oversized. For now we've added the chart on our website showing the research we have done with Caterpillar. Our recommendation based on this and testing different configurations is that the PULSE can be run on any PSD injector. But, we always suggest a 17* swap for the stock AA injectors instead. You can't justify the extra cost for the small gains you get. There is no need for something like the PULSE in the stock AA injector. We started rebuilding 15* pumps into 17* pumps for these injectors long before anyone else ever started doing it. We have always offered other options. Now it seems there are 20 companies out there doing rebuilds. I think that's great for the PSD community. Some people never need anything more than a simple rebuild. We no longer offer rebuilds as all of our time is dedicated to the PULSE now.

So, for any AD injector or larger the PULSE is perfect.

This probably needs no explanation, but if your truck is a dedicated race truck then you aren't worrying about anything in this post but having all the oil you can get to supply your humungous injectors.

Sorry the first post was so crappy and caused confusion. I hope this sorts it all out. Thanks, Bob

 

This is an entire fuel system. It uses a new electric pump, pre and post filters, return line coolers, wiring harness, etc. Here's the link to the site. DIESELSITE CPR FUEL SYSTEM - 1994-1997 Ford 7.3L

Bob

 

Bob, Great info!!!! You have me convinced. If i ever decide to do a new HPOP and fuel system, you will be getting a call from me. Thanks for taking the time to post all of that

-Robb

 

All that being said, and I really appreciate it Bob, The twin 15*/17* setup, even if installed correctly, that I was planning on doing may possibly provide too much oil? I have a newly rebuilt 17* pump and 180 cc Stage II's and I can set the CEL at about 3000 rpm. I give you that info so you can make an accurate answer. I know the Pulse is going to be a better option but I was hoping to use these since I have them already, that is if I can do it economically.
I saw the link you posted about the HPOP filter adapter and I liked the extra connections for the second pump but do you have the adapter to connect 2 HPOP's also? I looked and couldn't find anything.

Thanx a million Bob Reps sent for the great info you give us.

 

Sorry to write this on Bob's signon. Bob will be short of time through Monday juggling twenty different things right now, so I thought I better get back to you quickly. I went out and read the product page for the HPRA we sell and it really didn't explain its dual purpose very well. So I changed it. I hope it makes more sense now. It has filtration benefits and it can be used during the installation of your dual pumps for ease in installation and filtration for the rear pump which was previously unprotected.

You have decent sized injectors for even a new body style. Dual pumps would give you more out of them than the stock 17*. I think it is a smart choice to use them if it is more economical. Dual pumps have been run for a couple years now. I'm sure you'll be very happy with that setup. Obviously your stock 17* isn't doing the job with your programming. Choosing a PULSE over duals is a personal preference. Both setups supply more oil. They just do it differently. Make a decision best for you, your truck and your wallet. That's what is so great about having options.

Technically Bob has to be careful how he answers questions. I can tell you that "too much oil" would be difficult to ever determine without knowing the oil demand of the injector. And even then a rating system would have to be put in place which means that "too much oil" would have to defined. Right now the only thing we've ever seen that is too much is the DUAL PULSE PUMPS. We are basing that on the fact that the aeration they cause could never be overcome. So, I don't think that anyone should be overly concerned with the idea of too much oil out of a PULSE or a dual pump setup. It is only be something ridiculous that puts out over 2x the stock 17* pump that should be scrutinized closely. Nothing driven on the street would ever require anything more right now.

Bob and I both feel the same way about this: In this economy, if you can do something a little cheaper that is pretty similar in result then that's a no-brainer. Put your dual pumps in and enjoy! I tell customers all the time who call wanting a PULSE for their OBS truck that they many want to consider just an upgrade to the 17*. I downsell them alot of times if they only needed a replacment for a bad pump and never care about doing hp upgrades. Why? Money. If they have STOCK injectors in their OBS they shouldn't ever need more than the 17* upgrade. I also tell them that they would notice a difference with the PULSE but not enough to make up for $800 in price difference if that's all they do with their truck. At that point I have laid it all out and they can make their own decision. And if they ask what I PERSONALLY would do? My response is always the same. My truck would always have a PULSE.

Hope that helps - sorry Bob isnt available right now.
I don't believe either he will have time to view the forums until next week. Please call if you need additional information OR look for our responses next week. THANKS!
Sheryl Riley

 

Thank you Sheryl. You guys are so full of information. You have helped me alot. You know too much knowledge can be a bad thing but I am a long way from there. I guess I will just try to find an economical way to "stack" the pumps and I imagine I could use your filter adapter for some more line connections to do it the 'right' way.

 

Bob, my brother just got your system for his super duty and a fass, does he set up all of both or do you recommend a different procedure?